Why are the contacts stored on the trillian servers

[Magneet]

Why is that? All other IM's already store the contacts for you so why does trillian double this?

[ameoba]

The other IM services don't store MetaContact groupings or contact list personalization that you add through Trillian. Also, it allows you to use Trillian from any computer and have access to your list.

[Magneet]

The other IM services don't store MetaContact groupings or contact list personalization that you add through Trillian. Also, it allows you to use Trillian from any computer and have access to your list.

well, for me personal those are no advantages since I only use it from one pc or a memorystick from where I boot trillian. WIth 3.1 this was perfect possible and as long as the stick got the proper drive letter all of these worked. Will there be an option to turn the caching off? I can assure you you will turn some people away from trillian who care about privacy. Those are the people who actually bought trillian because of it's secure IM possibilities.

[DiamondNRG]

You are saying that the developers at CS are less trustworthy with your priceless little contact list than the idiots at AOL? Come on, I understand privacy, but that is rediculous.

[wonderland]

well, for me personal those are no advantages since I only use it from one pc or a memorystick from where I boot trillian. WIth 3.1 this was perfect possible and as long as the stick got the proper drive letter all of these worked. [quote]

Why shouldn't this work with Astra? That's not related to the server-side buddylist in any way?

[QUOTE=Magneet;681655]
Will there be an option to turn the caching off? I can assure you you will turn some people away from trillian who care about privacy. Those are the people who actually bought trillian because of it's secure IM possibilities.

You are saying that the developers at CS are less trustworthy with your priceless little contact list than the idiots at AOL? Come on, I understand privacy, but that is rediculous.

Yep, that's the best possible answer for that complaint ;)

Relax, it's not any of your actual chat logs, it's only the buddy list. Not too much privacy involved. Plus, all this information is already stored on servers completely out of your control...

..- Wonderland

[MrBlubke]

you mean caching in a way that when you leave the other computer (when logging in from a 3d persons location) no information is left on that system?
has there been a situation where you found private data on your system when logging in on the webinterface? or do you INSTALL astra on every place you're at and feel like chatting? I think the lack of privacy in that sort of situation is the PERSON, not the PROGRAMM

[tivac]

well, for me personal those are no advantages since I only use it from one pc or a memorystick from where I boot trillian. WIth 3.1 this was perfect possible and as long as the stick got the proper drive letter all of these worked. Will there be an option to turn the caching off? I can assure you you will turn some people away from trillian who care about privacy. Those are the people who actually bought trillian because of it's secure IM possibilities.

http://tivac.com/upload/images/thumbs/th_pEmEUKh_serversidecontacts.png (http://tivac.com/upload/images/pEmEUKh_serversidecontacts.png)

[twiggy]

You are saying that the developers at CS are less trustworthy with your priceless little contact list than the idiots at AOL? Come on, I understand privacy, but that is rediculous.

I personally don't care if my contact lists are stored on Trillian's server. However, this fanboyism gets really old even to those of us who love Trillian.

It's a legitimate privacy concern to voice. Even if they are trustworthy (I think they are), what if someone hacks into the server that stores all of that info? Why they'd want a list of screen names I have no idea, but stranger things have happened.

Again - store my contact lists on the server if you want, I don't care. But coming down on someone else who does care about it is pretty stupid. As is misspelling "ridiculous."

[y0himba]

I agree with the fact that it is a concern. I trust Scott. When he was working on an issue with web Astra with me, he was able to see my entire contact list for all mediums. Right now there is a bug in Astra that imports phone numbers into my MSN contacts. This means that he could see these phone numbers, and they are valid numbers that I like to keep private. I know beyond any doubt that the folks at Cerulean would not do anything stupid with this information, but it is a valid concern for those who don't have the accumulated trust that some of us here do.

Now the problem is this; anytime you connect to another user to message them, the traffic can be sniffed. Any time you connect to a web site, enter a password, your credit card number, the possibility exists for that information to be compromised.

So what do you do? Do you just unplug the computer and never communicate over it again? No. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. If hackers have us all running scared over the Internet, then we lose the communication and freedom it provides. It's like the US after 9/11, now we are a nation of paranoids, looking over our shoulders at everyone and at every suitcase and more. We are allowing our government to become more and more Orwellian in the name of security.

That is why the option is there to not allow it. Astra is developing, and with each build becoming more secure. Cerulean is trying it's best and I am sure it is one of the top priorities, your security and the security of info sent through Astra.

[Puggs]

Security Concerns aside, it woul be interesting to run an analys on those contact list and see if every Astra user can contact every other user by no more than 6 go between contacts. As in Six Degrees of Seperation.

[y0himba]

Mmm...nice idea! I like that....

[MLyons10]

So, this feature can be disabled if someone is particularly concerned about privacy? Hopefully that'll calm down some people...

[y0himba]

See post #7 in this thread :)

[MLyons10]

Yeah, I saw, hence my post. :) That is great. Now just to get the word out about this setting. Should calm a lot of people down. :)

[Puggs]

Yeah, I saw, hence my post. :) That is great. Now just to get the word out about this setting. Should calm a lot of people down. :)

They will find something else...

[MLyons10]

haha, I'm sure you're right Puggs... This seems to be the big issue at the moment though... From what I've seen, CS is really going out of their way to make Astra secure and provide PLENTY of security settings and options for those that are nervous about certain things (Like my concerns about Widgets). I'm really glad to see this, and hopefully it will cause everyone to just calm down a little. So far it looks like the user has the ability to disable any of these settings that may be potential security concerns for people, so I don't know what else security wise they can complain about... ;)

[Magneet]

wow didn't see the button for disabling it before. Trillian actually HAS thought about this :)

[sadlonelygeek]

only makes sense for them...why should they store it server side if the end user isn't going to take advantage of it? wasted bandwidth and $$$

[Puggs]

haha, I'm sure you're right Puggs... This seems to be the big issue at the moment though... From what I've seen, CS is really going out of their way to make Astra secure and provide PLENTY of security settings and options for those that are nervous about certain things (Like my concerns about Widgets). I'm really glad to see this, and hopefully it will cause everyone to just calm down a little. So far it looks like the user has the ability to disable any of these settings that may be potential security concerns for people, so I don't know what else security wise they can complain about... ;)

Well not being a tester yet, i can't comment on what they are doing, but CS has SecurerIM when others didn't so they do push the security issue.

But that said, there is nothing CS can do to protect a stupid users that doesn't have a firewall, Virus scanner etc. etc.

Apart from having all your contacts in one place, it's basicly what the other IM do. One and advantage i can see from this is if you have to change a IM details due to some reason you should be able to import you contact into the new IM user. eg. You change from fred@hotmail.com to fredflintstone@hotmail.com, all the contact that you had with fred@hotmail.com should be transfered to the new one.

Puggs

[typobox43]

Does that setting actually disable contact list uploading?

I thought it only disabled server-side connection storing - so that Astra can download your connections from the server if you move it to a new computer.

[smw]

Lots of good discussion here. To summarize:

- Security is as important to us as it is to you, and always has been.

- The contact list XML is stored on our servers; this is not optional as it's crucial to how Astra works. Because this information is not only stored elsewhere, but is sent to your Trillian connections in a less "organized" form anyways, every time you connect to other services, we decided it wasn't something we could reasonably secure. In other words, your security is only as strong as your weakest link. When your weakest link is the AIM server you're connecting to, that's that and we won't waste time adding pointless layers of security to the product.

- Yes, our databases could be hacked. So could your personal computers, and so could AOL's databases, etc etc. We WILL be working hard to ensure data integrity and privacy - we spent most of last week doing just that, from both a database and a protocol perspective. We will continue do improve security everywhere anytime we see a problem or are alerted to a problem.

- You can disable build 28's screen name storage feature if you have no use for it. It's there to provide easy access to those who desire it, and it's pretty cool in our opinion. It is, however, not vital to Trillian's functionality and thus can be disabled entirely.

- Scott

[MLyons10]

Out of curiosity, why is server side storage of the contact list XML integral to the way Astra works? I haven't yet been accepted as a tester *sniff* , so this may be a stupid question (But hey, asking stupid questions is why I'm here... ;) ).

[greycellgreen]

Since no one better-informed has answered, I'll take a stab at it.

I'm assuming it has to do with Astra's browser-based capabilities, where you can access and message your entire contact list anywhere with internet access by logging into Cerulean's servers rather than having to remote to your home computer.

[y0himba]

That's pretty much what I think. The flash for web Astra reads the XML like a playlist, and pretty much like desktop Astra reads the INI files..

[ZodiacN64]

Yeah, I saw, hence my post. :) That is great. Now just to get the word out about this setting. Should calm a lot of people down. :)
I read up on some of the other posts related to this one about saving your contact list on the Trillian server... I do recall reading about how Trillian doesn't pick up "new MSN friend requests" and another involving how "AIM buddylist doesn't update" unless you use their ACTUAL messaging programs. Have those problems been resolved with Astra?

Confused by what I am trying to ask? Here are some examples...

MSN example: You sign onto MSN, and you have 3 new friend requests. But when you sign onto Trillian, you don't see those requests.

AIM example: You add 3 more buddies to your contact list on Trillian. But when you sign onto AIM at work, those 3 newly added contacts aren't there.

[y0himba]

It's an alpha, not feature complete. That's one of the things being concentrated on I would imagine, that's pretty mch a core feature.

[sweintraub]

Lots of good discussion here. To summarize:

- The contact list XML is stored on our servers; this is not optional as it's crucial to how Astra works. Because this information is not only stored elsewhere, but is sent to your Trillian connections in a less "organized" form anyways, every time you connect to other services, we decided it wasn't something we could reasonably secure. In other words, your security is only as strong as your weakest link. When your weakest link is the AIM server you're connecting to, that's that and we won't waste time adding pointless layers of security to the product.
- Scott

Is it theoretically possible to have contacts in trillian that are not stored on the medium servers? I realize they probably wouldn't get status updates, but it might provide a way to add security for some.

[Mr_Unlucky]

It's an alpha, not feature complete. That's one of the things being concentrated on I would imagine, that's pretty mch a core feature.

syncing buddy lists with the AIM/MSN servers has never worked too well in trillian...ie if you add a contact to a meta, it doesn't change the group its in on the AIM servers.

[realnc]

The whole "Astra" thing is a bad idea if made non-optional. The fact that I won't be able to use the program if the Astra servers are down or there are connectivity issues should be taken dead-serious. I imagine the ridicule of my friends when I tell them that I was forced to login with Messenger because "Astra is down".

"It's how Astra works" is no excuse. If you need it for verification purposes (serial keys verification etc) then do just that.

Also consider that if "that's how Astra works," then make make it work different. If you just don't want to, please just say so, and if possible state the reasons.

Thanks.

[CPAGirlNC]

The whole "Astra" thing is a bad idea if made non-optional. The fact that I won't be able to use the program if the Astra servers are down or there are connectivity issues should be taken dead-serious. I imagine the ridicule of my friends when I tell them that I was forced to login with Messenger because "Astra is down"."Offline mode" was added in Build 24; if the servers are down you can still load Trillian. Changes made to your contact list will not be saved, however, until a successful restart with live servers.

[y0himba]

Astra consolidates all of your contact information also, into one account accessible from anywhere with a web browser. It's a great and convenient idea.

[MLyons10]

Thanks everyone for your answers to my question. One question I had from what others have been discussing in this thread is, if you are in Offline Mode, and you add or change contacts. It was said that the changes wouldn't save until a successful restart in which you were able to log into the Astra servers. I'm assuming the new contacts and updated contact information would still be saved on my machine, just not synced with the Web Chat functionality? Could someone clarify this, as I don't quite follow.

I do agree that the Web Chat is a great feature, I just feel that there should be a way to sync you conversations.

[Hollow]

In other words, your security is only as strong as your weakest link.
So, Astra is as useful as the strongest link to astra's server, and you don't provide it and can't improve it :(
Maybe you don't know, but sometimes there are problems with internet connection. And sometimes there are private networks without connection to Internet, but with local/enterprise communication servers (ex. IRC) or P2P communication protocols.

[qoute]"Offline mode" was added in Build 24; if the servers are down you can still load Trillian. Changes made to your contact list will not be saved, however, until a successful restart with live servers.[/quote]
I want, no, I NEED to manage my contact list offline. And i want to store it offline. Not because of security, but because of usability.

I guess, the claims about contact info consolidation mostly cover the very effective way to track illegal software usage. I think it must be an option to synchronize contact list with astra server, not more. This service option would be a great advantage, but this compulsion is a great disadvantage for many users.

So, why is there NEED to store contacts on server? Maybe it's reasonable to require it for some features, like Web Chat, but not totally.

[realnc]

Astra consolidates all of your contact information also, into one account accessible from anywhere with a web browser. It's a great and convenient idea.
This reminds me of some programs that don't provide an uninstaller because "the program is so great that you'll never want to uninstall it!"

Also consider the fact that Cerulean Studios is not immortal. It can commercially fail and shut down, bought by another company, etc. With making Astra mandatory, you're tying the program to the Astra network and therefore to the entity that owns that network. Personally, I don't mind if my contacts are stored on Cerulean's servers. But keep in mind what happens to the program if Astra joins the bankruptcy nirvana. Right now, no matter what happens to Cerulean, Trillian 3.1 is usable for as long as it's compatible with the chat protocols. This won't be true for Trillian Astra. Also consider extended downtimes for whatever reason (ISP issues, DoS attack, financial problems, whatever). You will be leaving the users with limited functionality for some time (or forever?)

Syncing the contacts with the affected protocols fist (MSN, ICQ, etc) and then with Astra would provide graceful degradation. Or is this already the case? I don't have access to the alpha builds so I don't really know; I'm only making conclusions from what I read on the forums.

[MLyons10]

This reminds me of some programs that don't provide an uninstaller because "the program is so great that you'll never want to uninstall it!"

haha, that's pretty funny actually... (LOL)

Seriously though, I tend to agree. Regardless of whether or not the Astra Network is available, the users should be able to add, edit, and manage their contacts as if you were connected. I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but I think that it makes sense. I'm not in the Alpha testing though, so I'm curious to know if this is the case or not.

Thanks,

[CPAGirlNC]

You can do anything you like to the contact list when Astra is in offline mode. Your buddy list is saved locally just as it always has been. When you connect to the Astra server again, it will synchronize the two. I am pretty sure it looks at whichever copy of buddies.xml is the most recent and synchronizes based on it.

[y0himba]

Not to mention Astra sends your contact list to a super-secret alien training base in Alaska, messes with your TV so you can only get The Nashville Network, and impregnates your neighbor's cat.

Seriously though, anyone who is worried about it will be able to shut this off in user prefs. I understand the paranoia over having this data stored, but like Scott said, your local PC can be hacked, anything can be pretty much. I am fairly paranoid and private, yet I trust Cerulean to store my contacts and make every possible attempt to keep them secure.

[realnc]

You can do anything you like to the contact list when Astra is in offline mode. Your buddy list is saved locally just as it always has been. When you connect to the Astra server again, it will synchronize the two. I am pretty sure it looks at whichever copy of buddies.xml is the most recent and synchronizes based on it.Thanks for clarifying it! That is indeed the most logical behavior, but with no access to the alpha it's hard to get info on some of the details in Astra. :)

[CPAGirlNC]

Also, there is an option to force it to use the local copy, but it's not in the GUI yet. You have to manually change the astra.ini file to do that at this time.

Use Local Contacts=1

I found that setting in the early alphas because the server kept screwing up my list. ;)

[Lomgren]

Also, there is an option to force it to use the local copy, but it's not in the GUI yet. You have to manually change the astra.ini file to do that at this time.

Use Local Contacts=1

I found that setting in the early alphas because the server kept screwing up my list. ;)
Thank you so much. I hadn't dug around the ini file yet, and all my grouping and metacontacts never save. So this is extremely useful to me.

[Sparks]

As was already said elsewhere, at present the offline/server reconciliation just takes one or the other; down the road, the plan at present is that it will synchronize in smaller chunks. Being an alpha, not everything's there yet. Not everything is finalized even in DESIGN yet.

This is, after all, an alpha. It's an alpha being opened to public participation this time, but it is NOT a feature-complete product set. Things are in flux. Things will change... some based on feedback, some as we continue to flesh things out in the design or come across new ideas or problems in implementation.

And yes, as has been said before, some options /will/ be restricted during alpha, to force various features to be tested. So -- I'd think understandably -- regardless of whatever the eventual result turns out to be when all is said and done, that clearly does not change the fact that Astra is not optional /for the alpha test/. ;)

[MLyons10]

Thanks everyone for the answers. Astra is a very exciting release, I can't wait to start using the program (I know...soon... ;) ). I tend to be a little paranoid, but I do trust CS with my contact list. I don't see that as being a problem, and for those that are nervous about it, it appears that the users will be able to disable any or all features that would send data to CS. That should calm them down. :D

[ZodiacN64]

Does Astra have the ability to download the buddylist file (aka buddylist.xml)? Sometimes I will go to another computer and use a different program and it messes up my list (either losing contacts or gaining contacts that I previously deleted). In Trillian 3.1, I used to keep my buddylist file as a backup. Any suggestions? I turned off that option from post #7, but no file is created on my drive. :confused:

[CPAGirlNC]

On a typical installation, it will be located in C:\Documents and Settings\<Windows user name>\Application Data\Trillian\users\<Astra user name>

[ZodiacN64]

On a typical installation, it will be located in C:\Documents and Settings\<Windows user name>\Application Data\Trillian\users\<Astra user name>
Thanks again! I didn't even know that this version of Trillian would create a folder in there. Silly me.

[ZodiacN64]

I am curious about something that relates to this thread... I remember reading some older posts where you had to either accept a new contact twice on MSN for it to take effect, or you would have to install AIM's client program for it to directly save your newly added buddies on AIM's server. Those older posts I read (from 2001 and so on) failed to mention whether or not those issues were ever resolved. :confused:

(*) My question is... If I add a new contact (such as AIM) and I see it update my buddylist on Trillian's server, does it also update on that IM client's server as well???

[db2450]

I am curious about something that relates to this thread... I remember reading some older posts where you had to either accept a new contact twice on MSN for it to take effect, or you would have to install AIM's client program for it to directly save your newly added buddies on AIM's server. Those older posts I read (from 2001 and so on) failed to mention whether or not those issues were ever resolved. :confused:

(*) My question is... If I add a new contact (such as AIM) and I see it update my buddylist on Trillian's server, does it also update on that IM client's server as well???
I don't have Astra...... yet, but in 3.1 I remember that the only server I ever had any problems were was th AIM server. I could add them, but couldn't change the group they were in.

Also, you could check if it updates on the client's server as well by adding a new contact, and using some thing like Meebo (http://meebo.com) to sign on and check if the contact is there.

[ZodiacN64]

I don't have Astra...... yet, but in 3.1 I remember that the only server I ever had any problems were was th AIM server. I could add them, but couldn't change the group they were in.

Also, you could check if it updates on the client's server as well by adding a new contact, and using some thing like Meebo (http://meebo.com) to sign on and check if the contact is there.
I was thinking of doing that, but since I am using Astra, I didn't want Meebo to inadvertantly wipe out any of my new MetaContacts if that issue wasn't resolved. But, thanks for the idea!

[db2450]

I never thought of that %-)

[mirko]

Also, it allows you to use Trillian from any computer and have access to your list.
Mhhh, actually shouldn't the IM connections of the desktop and the web client be synced? That does not work in my case.

[ameoba]

Mhhh, actually shouldn't the IM connections of the desktop and the web client be synced? That does not work in my case.

Not yet. (http://forums.ceruleanstudios.com/showpost.php?p=684422&postcount=3)